Dave Lipson talks Functional Hypertrophy Training, the Future of Fitness and Testosterone

In this podcast episode, Chad is joined by Dave Lipson, the creator of Thundrbro Hypertrophy Training. A former CrossFit Games athlete, member of CrossFit seminar staff and coach. Dave shares his insights on CrossFit, hypertrophy training , recovery, the future of fitness, and testosterone replacement therapy.

We begin by discussing his years doing CrossFit, and Dave shares his thoughts on the sport and its evolution over the years. We then delve into hypertrophy training, and Dave explains how it can be used to build muscle mass and how it keeps you staying injury free! He shares his tips on effective hypertrophy training, including the importance of proper form and technique, progressive overload, and recovery.

Dave shares his tips on how to optimize recovery through proper sleep, nutrition, and mobility work.

Finally, we wrap up the discussion with a conversation on testosterone replacement therapy, and Dave shares his insights on the topic, including its benefits and proper usage.

Watch the episode on YouTube
https://youtu.be/xPkK9KvMRPc

Follow Dave on Instagram
@davefreakinlipson
@Thundrbro

Follow Chad at @chadmueller

Visit thundrbro.com to find out more about hypertrophy training, Muscle Anarchy daily program or many of the Thundrbro books.

Follow us on Instagram at @livingthefitlifepod
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Visit our website to watch or listen to our previous episodes.

Transcript

0:00:07
Community members, coaches, and professionals working as a team of like mining individuals in constant pursuit. Connecting this exclusive group with the tools and resources they require to live a high performance lifestyle, conquering what life has thrown at them. We are Living the Fit Life. Alright. Welcome to Living the Fit Life podcast episode sixty four. I'm your host, Chandler, and I'm so excited for all you tuning in. This marks our season three premiere of the Livingston like podcast. It's sort of crazy to think that it's been three seasons and started in twenty twenty. We took a little bit of a break for the customers, but we're back and we are playing a really, really big season of awesome guests.

0:00:46
And today, I'm super excited and jacked up about this man that wanted to talk to the legend, the rain senator Dave freaking lips, and how's it going, Dave? What's up, Chad? Oh, man. I'm so stoked to be here. Are you guys out in Canada? You're so lucky to have this guy as a sees your national treasure right here, especially in the fitness community. So I I when I spoke to Chad, I was like, hey, you don't know this, but I'm like, Chad Chad Bell, number one fan. Right. What's going on? It's it's great to have it's great to be on with you. I always love talking with you. Yes. Same here, man. I'm really looking forward to it. And I'm yeah.

0:01:21
I'm I'm sort of like, I was really I woke up this morning, I'm super excited. I got a a workout in that five, got back home at around seven, I'm just like, I need a good workout in, get a sweat out, and I'm like, I haven't podcasted in. It's been a few months since, like, November. So and I was like, man, the best person to talk to is you, Dave. Like, I'm like, this guy's the best, so I'm gonna sit down and have a great chat and looking forward to So we're diving into fitness, recovery, nutritional service. Like, can we and I, we do our podcast and we Yes. It's awesome.

0:01:48
Think the hardest thing is actually doing it. Like, doing this silly. Because I'm like, when whenever we record it, it's awesome. There's crazy stuff. That are people like the, you know, the conversation and everything like that. I'm like, it's just a matter of us being if I carve out the time to actually get them in because We got a lot of balls in the air, so to speak. So I I totally feel you gotta you gotta get your reps in, and it sounds like sixty four episodes deep. You got a nice you got a nice little start here to add. It's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. We've done pretty good. And, yeah, your podcast is great. I really like enjoying it.

0:02:21
But honestly, like, the feeling I get with podcasting is, like, it's great to have a conversation. And then after, it's like, you just feel like just so, like, I just have such a, like, I don't know, Dorf and Russia. It's almost like a workout after. It just feels great that I a chance to have a good conversation with somebody. And it's like, I can't wait for people to hear about it. So, you know, at least once a day, Tammy and I or someone else will be talking about something get deep into a heated discussion and pull out a couple, you know, gyms out of our ass. We're like, fuck, we should have podcasted this. It was record record button was on. That was beautiful. Amazing. Amazing. Well, I'm looking forward to get some of those gems today. So yeah.

0:02:56
So I guess, first, let's I I just, like, say, maybe I know you probably talk about this a lot, but a quick intro for the guests. How maybe more specifically, how did fitness start for you? Like, what was your your first thing that you got into fitness or athletics? Man, I mean, it's a baseball. Sport? Probably very similar to most people. Like, I I got into sports and athletics kind of for a weird reason.

0:03:25
Most people may not know this, but the the story is when I was five years old, my mother and I were in a very horrific car accident. We We're in, like, this little Azizu, and mom fell asleep at the wheel. I was asleep at the passenger seat, and we went head on with a minivan. Oh my god. And And so I was in the hospital for a long time. I was in the hospital for a long time.

0:03:46
I I I started kindergarten a little bit late. That year. This happened over the summer right before my first year kindergarten. And then, like, you know, as time went by, the teachers were like, David is not talking. He's not speaking. Like, we does he have autism? Like, they're trying to they they thought something was wrong. So they're like, ah, they pulled me out of school. Yada yada. It was it was there was a lot of post traumatic stress there for a little kid. I had no idea what was going on.

0:04:10
I was just, you know, but I I I was a very kind of scared, shy, quiet type of kit. And I I found that, like, the one place that I actually felt powerful and in control and that I had some kind of worth and value or that I could be a big version of myself was, you know, that like reset or in gym class. And and so sports to me became a really sacred place. Right, where it was like, this is my time to to feel like I can be myself to to feel great about myself, you know, to to be that version of myself that I'm too scared to be outside those morning field. And so that kind of continued on an as you matriculate through sports, you have played all kinds of sports.

0:04:59
I was always a pretty good runner. So I I did sprinting, football, basketball, but I was, like, kind of getting closer to high school and it was becoming clear that I was, like, a a really good baseball player. And as, you know, major league scout started coming by college recruiter started coming by. They're like, oh, I should focus on this. So I I would do track in the off season. I would do baseball. Pretty much year round. And then after high school, I went and played in college and then professional baseball. But, you know, like, for me, like, that story kinda continues because, like, sports were a place for me to find myself. And after a while of, like, you know, being, you know, the whatever, the captain of the baseball team, I slowly started bringing that outside the field, like, in, you know, like, in the regular day life and give me a little courage or confidence to, like, ask a girl out on a date or Okay. I know what whatever it might be. Yeah. And and so yeah.

0:05:57
That when my baseball career ended, obviously, like, I I had such a deep emotional attachment to sports and athletics. That's pretty terrifying to to think like, well, you know, as compared it to that Eric's Zoolander moment. When he, like, walks outside, there's, like, a new guy in town. He looks at his middle. He's, like, who am I? And I'm, like, well, if I'm not a baseball player, then who am I? Mean, every since I was probably fourteen years old, I was always introduced to everyone as David the baseball player. Right. So, you know, it was It was a pretty I think a lot of athletes go through this where they're trying to just understand, like, what is what is my value outside of the the the the baseball field and you know, what I've come to realize over time is that, like, sports, like, they're just a vessel for us to express our gifts. You know, there's lots of different ways to express it. And and I always love the process of preparing for baseball, training a preparation of applying stress to your body, really create a response.

0:06:54
Later on in my baseball career when I had a big reconstructive elbow surgery. That was really when I started getting into training because I was so I mean, I had such a death grip on my career that I was like, I'm not letting this go. Like, this is ideal. Whatever happens, I need to have this. I decided that if my elbow was gonna be my weak weight, then I was gonna make the rest of my body as strong, as formidable as possible, and I made it a promise to myself to be the biggest, strongest guy in the organization. And, you know, in an organization full of monsters, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna be, like, I'm gonna be the strongest the strongest dude, you know, on the team.

0:07:28
And so I really started getting into strength training and and, you know, coming back, after a season of being completely out rehabbing and training. I was I went from about a hundred and eighty five pounds to two hundred and twenty five pounds over the course of an entire year. And and that was just learning some basic stuff. You know, baseball training is pretty archaic. They don't like pictures to lift. And it was the first time I was actually doing back spots and deadness.

0:07:54
And I I honestly started, you know, training I'm just, like, a naturally strong person. You know, like, I got, like, this my grandpa was super strong. I I just had the ability to really just get the most out of my body or whatever. So, you know, when I started training, I had close to, like, a five hundred pound back squat. You know, first time I really started squatting. So it wasn't it wasn't that hard for me to get a response. And, you know, when I came back the phone here, you know, I don't wanna push back of coaches and people in the organization say, hey, you're too big, you're too bulky, you're gonna be muscled down. And what ended up happening was I I came back and I was actually a lot better Like, I was doing harder. I was more injury resistant, more resilient. And to me, I was like, oh, this is it.

0:08:37
Like, this you know, working on your biology, your contractile, potentially, your physical body is the foundation of any athletic endeavor because it's the muscle that puts action on the bones. So whether you're a baseball player, a crossfit, a power lifter, a door exactly, it starts with muscle. Right? And and then, you know, I I started to get a hankering for, not just training myself, but, like, sharing what I was doing with other people because, obviously, our teammates wanted to do what I was doing. And just, like, now, you know, people, like, auto like you or what are you doing? You know, you're the hardest four of the team. Like, what's your throwing program? So, you know, I take some of my buddies to the gym, and I'm like, okay. Here's what I do, and it was, like, super basic stuff, you know, really simple. But I just I love that idea of just kinda sharing with them and and it's not, you know, it's not just training. Right? Training part that gets to the results of I I because I had that deep seated emotional attachment to my sport I wouldn't just train.

0:09:34
Like, I would train, like, my life dependent on it. And that really never ends it. Right? It kinda goes Yeah. It doesn't seem like there's always there's always that set or that exercise or that complex where I'm, like, you know, able to go there and exercise the demons, so to speak. And to me, that's like what I love so much about training is that the, you know, taking yourself to that place where you can call on that level of adrenaline and that kind of visceral survival response and just like to me, it makes me feel like a man, you know. Yeah.

0:10:06
And and then so after baseball, I I, you know, I didn't know what I wanted to do. And tried a bunch of different stuff and I said, you know, let me let me try training maybe. I don't know. Like, I've I've already kinda trained in my, you know, some of my teammates and I wasn't sure if I was gonna go back and play another season at baseball. So I took a job in Manhattan at a very private, exclusive gym, training people, and just got my feet wet in the industry my entire last year of professional baseball. I spent just, like, studying. I had this huge textbook called the essentials of straight conditioning. Which is kind of the the gold standard text for being a certified strength and conditioning coach. And I kinda had an idea. I'm like, you know, maybe I'll be an organizational train coach or maybe I'll go and train athletes or I'll go work at a private facility. I was kind of thinking more, like, doing things with elite athletes. I'll let you know. I think I wanna train baseball players or football players or whatever.

0:11:00
But, you know, once I started training people, what I realized is that, like, one, the market for this people is is really small. And two, for me as a trainer, it was a lot more rewarding for me to take somebody who was not already really fit and make them like one percent cent fitter. But to take somebody who was kinda like, you know, going from zero to hero. Like, that to me is the most exciting thing. Right now, you know, taking these people who that that's a life changing thing. You drop -- Right. -- two pounds off of somebody, you put on twenty pounds of muscle mass. You know, they're doing things they couldn't do before their confidence. It affects every part of their life. It becomes an integral part of who they are as their daily process of habits and the fabric of, you know, what they're about, that that that stuff extends beyond the gym.

0:11:45
And then, you know, after training people, I kinda found CrossFit a little bit, and I like the idea of competing a little bit myself, and that kinda led me down a whole different road competing in CrossFit and working for Crossroads HQ for a decade and and just kinda getting deep into that cross fit community so much so that it was like an an unhealthy level of subversion into cross paths. Well, I I wanna ask yeah. I wanna ask about the your your time and sport because I find a lot of people that we talk to, and I think a lot of people that I know they have some sort of athletic background. Right? And some sort of high level sport, color sport, whatever. And like you said, it's it's a very sacred thing to them. It's like they lived it for a long time and it was it was their brand, it was their thing.

0:12:30
And my my thought is that Crossett has been successful because it's been sort of like a a second career for some competitive people because it offered fitness in a competitive way. And I often think about, like, is that why CrossFit has sort of become what it is today? Because it's you know, you finish your sort because of age and life, you know, whatever. You you have to get a job. You're not good enough. So be professional sport.

0:12:56
And then it's like, well, I need to scratch that itch. I need something, and that's where I feel like something like CrossFit. And then I'm sure there's others sort of broke into the scene, and I think that's one of the reasons why I see a lot of people that are sort of from previous athlete to now cross fit, quote unquote, athlete, or cross fit person. Did you find that could I scratch that itch for you? Yeah. I mean, like, so I think just being in this industry for as long as they have you know, it's down. I'm in my forties. I can do this for, like, you know, a a good a good fifteen, almost twenty years.

0:13:30
People wanna feel special. Right? Everyone's got a hold of film. And and I think that crossfit can make people feel special for a number of different ways. One, they feel part of the community. Right? People say, oh, it's kind of a cold. Well, it it can be depending on, you know, what you're into and who you're listening to and and this snap. But and and at the affiliate level. Right? You're going in and you're part of a group and this is not just like this is so markedly different to, like, the crossfit or the group exercise model versus the club gym model. Right. And and some group exercise models do it better than others crossfit does it. Essentially well.

0:14:14
When you're part of a community that is shared suffering and you're being vulnerable with people and they're seeing you Right? You're no longer putting on a front. And that is kind of the standard or say, oh, check your ego at the door, but just like simple things like in a cross region people talk to. You know, like, if you go to a regular gym and you start just, like, talking to random people that you're gonna get a lot of pushback and a lot of just looks like, why are you down? What do you want from each Like in CrossFit, it's like it's more of a fraternity.

0:14:46
Right? And and every time you basically start and work out, that's your pledge. You're you're pledging right now. And as you go through that, as you get indoctrinated into the community via shared suffering and learning how to move and how to work hard and the whole lifestyle, you become part of it and it goes from a workout program to part of your identity, which can be a nice thing, but it can also be a bad thing too. Okay. Yeah. Because, you know, that's when tribal thinking comes into play. You know, it kinda that's when it kinda can become a little bit of a cult. So now it's kinda work on the fringe. It's, like, enjoy the community. Aspect, you don't have to go full tilt into it. Right? But I I think that's probably the thing Crossman has done the most well.

0:15:29
From a training perspective, they brought some really good things into mainstream training, primarily just the use of application of of functional compound movements that have high utility and application outside the chain. Right? And and that's the biggest thing. You know, we can debate about the formula and the program. There's obviously things that, you know, everyone has opinions about, like, the formula that's off, a constantly vary functional movements at a high intensity. If there's any piece of that formula that's right, it's the functional movement. And that's what you see has the most spillover into the industry as a whole because now whenever you go to crunch fitness or twenty four hour fitness or whatever the change in this up in Canada, you're gonna see an Olympic lifting platform, and some domestic rings, and a kettlebell, and a polar bar, and you're seeing more and more people doing you know compound functional movements that are actually able to produce results from, you know, a physical and neurological you know, application. So, you know, before you go into one of those club gyms, it's all machines.

0:16:28
And I think a lot of crossfitters kind of started in that model where, like, used to go to twenty wire Fitness and didn't work, and then I did crossfit, and all of a sudden it's the best program ever. And the reason for that is because yeah. Like, for the first time, you're actually practicing and learning how to move. And for the first time, you're actually working kinda hard. Right? Because you walk in the gym like nobody wants to look silly in a in a regular gym. Like, no, everyone is, like, worried about how they look. So if you're grunting or suffering or whatever, there's, like, you know, the monk alarm is gonna go off. Okay. And so so, yeah, I think I think those are some of the reasons why and I guess you could say, like, for me, for my perspective, and probably my wife shares the same opinion. Those are the the most valuable things that Crossrail kind of brings into the fitness industry and two people. Is that community and that idea of just practicing functional movements. Yeah. No. No. Very well said.

0:17:23
I would I didn't wanna spend too much time on across the thing, but, like, if anybody searches your name, they'll find lots of material online, whether you're part of the sort of the the coaching staff or even you competing, how would you summarize your your time and cross it, whether it's from a competing perspective or coaching, like, how do you how do you look back on that time period for yourself? Like, you know, my my journey across, it's, like, probably the the same as a lot of other people. Like, probably, you know, yearly identical. I probably stuck around a little longer than books. But, you know, when I found it, I was so excited by it because it was like opening up a new door. I think I remember kinda saying to myself, like, damn it.

0:18:04
You know, like, I was a professional baseball player at a like a world class high level. I spent so much time trying to, you know, like, make my body perform. The best I possibly could I was getting paid to play. And I feel like a lot of the training I did was only watching the surface because, you know, I could never do an overheads. I never tried an overheads swap before. And the first time I did it, I couldn't even, like, get into a position and, you know, you see so much like, I call it the honeymoon period in CrossFit when you start practicing this stuff, there's this huge, you know, improvement, like, fast big curve going up exponential every day you're coming in, you're getting a new PR, you're learning a new movement, you're getting into a better position like that improvement curve is is vast and quick. And primarily, that's just like a lot of it is is just like neurological and just understanding how to use your body. And and to me, that was so exciting. Right? It was also exciting to feel like I had you know, I could be an athlete together. I had something to compete for.

0:19:05
Where when I would go into a regular dim, it just I didn't feel that that blood thirst in there. You know what I mean? I didn't I didn't feel that I of the tiger thing going on. It was just like, you know, you need to have you need to have whatever reasons you're doing. You need to have a very strong y. Right? Like, why are you doing this? And and I think that the CrossFit, you know, gave people, like, a new why. Like, why? Because I wanna wanna see what I'm capable of. You know, I wanna see how fast, like, how can I be, you know? And it doesn't matter what the goal level that has. And then, you know, from there, you know, competing kinda becomes a self feeding monster where, like, you know, you kinda live to compete. You're online. You're like, look and its scores and watching videos and just it's like take it over.

0:19:51
And and working for CrossFit was just like the to to me, the idea of spreading that passion. Right? Spreading that passion and that knowledge for, like, this stuff is special. Here's why it's special, yada yada. Have after a decade of repeating the same lectures and experiencing some things that may, you know, my eyebrows rise a little bit. I'm like, don't know if I could do this anymore because I didn't believe everything I was saying and, you know, we had the staff of people. It's like regurgid treating Greg Glassman's words.

0:20:22
And and as I started to kinda like get to know and even learn about him or I'm like, know about this guy. You know? Like, when I originally met him, I was like, oh, he's a genius. He's a visionary. And then as time went on, I'm like, Yeah. I don't know. There could be a lot of things going on there. You know, so so anyways, you know, I started coming up with my own ideas, and I think that once of the things that you can probably categorize for for most people, and this is really where the road splits.

0:20:51
You know, you have two types of people. You have people that are in a growth mindset. Right? These are people that are seekers that are willing to question their beliefs, that wanna know more, that one is, you know, they they typically are able to just, like, you know, put their ego and separate their identity from, you know, what they what they know and what they think. And then you have people that attach those ideas to their identity that are unwilling to challenge them. And I think that that for me was the point where I started to flip. Because I, you know, like, I I could see like, I was like, you know, I think I think maybe there's a night we can rethink this. I think there are ways to maybe improve upon this program. I think there are things we need to consider. But, you know, a lot of people get defensive. And although CrossFit says, like, we're a feedback driven community, any type of, you know, constructive feedback gets lost. Yeah. Don't worry about that. So as an exam, goal.

0:21:46
You know, in two thousand and I think it was sixteen, Camille and I were at the trainer summit for CrossFit where they bring all the HQ staff and we were, like, in Dallas, or something. The directors of training, did Castro and Nicole Carroll, who we knew, well, and we still, you know, are friendly with They asked, like, hey, Dave and Cam, would you guys like to create your own course? And I think what they were thinking was that I was trying to, like, span their specialty courses. Mhmm. And they wanted Cammy, maybe she wanted to do something with, like, competitors. I think their competitor's course was kinda, like, not doing so well or they could can can come up with their own course with Dave and those two will just travel around. Mhmm. Well, anyways, as I said, yeah, I got a great idea because this was right around the time when you know, I I was getting injured a lot and cam too. Like, she had a dislocated completely torn shoulder.

0:22:34
I had a major reconstructive back surgery, and that was where I really started exploring, like, hypertrophy. Like, what are different ways for me to create intensity, to get increased size and strain? Without just going as fast as I can or as heavy as I can. Right? What do those different ways kinda look like? And I started reading actually, I probably got it right here. This is This is by bible. This is the science of muscle hypertrophy and by Dr. Grant Schoenfeldt. Actually, as soon as I started reading that, I contacted him and had some great conversations with him.

0:23:00
And what I was saying is, like, I wanna understand the context here. Like, how can I take this, you know, the the methods, the mechanisms, the practice of my perturbine, combine it? With the pursuit of lead arthritisism and functional fitness, you know? And and what could that look like? And so I started using myself as a guinea pig. And I was like, oh, this is great. Like, one, I'm training pain free now because this doesn't always have to be as heavy as possible. You know, there's lots of different ways to challenge muscles. And two, I'm like, I'm looking a little different.

0:23:28
Like, I'm starting to put on size and not only that, I'm starting to learn a lot about all of the other layers that surround that stratosphere of hypertrophy that are like nutrition, lifestyle, internal chemistry, you know, all these things that can help maximize your ability to to, you know, create anabolic environment, new body, and a lot of things that were actually contrary to what we're teaching in CrossFit. So, you know, my proposition to them was, like, let's do a hypertrophy for functional fitness course. So let's do a cross fit, hypertrophy course. Well, they basically, like, laughed at me. They were like, you know, it's like, bicep curls, no way. No. We're not doing that. Like, forget it. Like, oh, no. I don't think you understand, like, there's a little science here. There's there's a bunch of stuff starting with just understanding the cellular anatomy of muscles and the adaptation process that takes place and the types of training that garner hypertrophy and how you can combine that way, all this stuff. I said, let me just, like, I'll write a I'll write a little article for you in the Crossroads Journal about it because I don't think you understand stand what I'm talking about. Right? I'm not I'm not talking about bodybuilders that do cross fit. I'm I'm talking about a whole new opportunity for people to find success when they become like me and Camille. When they start to plateau and they start to get injured, this is the way. And and really the reason why that's the way is because the same thing we teach in the level one, you have neurological and biological adaptations. Right? The neurological ones software, how well you communicate with your body, and the biological ones, the cross sectional size and strength of muscles as their contractile potential. So when you get to the point, We already have the positions and you already understand the patterns, your opportunity for improvement from a technical standpoint is is fractional. Really, the most opportunity is increasing your physical body, the biological adaptations. You're increasing the cross sectional size and straight the muscles to express more power. So, you know, that's that's a handful. But I'm a butchering alright.

0:25:19
I write in your article. I'm diving in. I'm at this science. I'm like, this science is and kick ass. I got all this stuff highlighted from the book. I'm like, this is fucking gnarly. And I'm going and I'm writing and I'm writing and I'm like, you know what? Maybe it's not an article, maybe it's two articles.

0:25:31
So I go to the second one now. I'm like, twenty pages deep. And I'm like, oh, but I didn't talk about nutrition. So let's get into that. Now supplements, so what about the sleep? And now internal chemistry, but it's a hundred pages long now. Right? Okay.

0:25:42
And so I'm about to submit it to the CrossFit Journal, and I called up the guy there who was managing his name was like Mike. And I said Mike, I have this article. I wanted to submit it to you guys. But before I do, because I just had a weird feeling that they were just gonna try to squash this. Okay? If I give it to you, would you own it? And he said, yeah. As soon as you submit it to us, we own it. And I go, okay. Forget it. I'll publish it myself.

0:26:08
And so that was my first book, hypertrophy from functional fitness, which is an argument for how and why to implement hypertrophy training into functional fitness to address these things that are happening on a daily basis, which is the reason why there's attrition from Crossman, why we're losing members is because of the injury, because of Plato because people are not getting the results they want. Right? And, like, this is the answer. And now, here's my one hundred page argument to back it up. And that was our first product at Thunder Grove. After, like, putting that out, we got a lot of feedback saying, like, okay. That's cool. I love the book, but, like, about a training program? What would this look like? Can you give me a sample training program?

0:26:47
So we wrote I wrote the same program that I designed for myself with doctor Brad Schoenfeld, after my back surgery called the ninety day get huge program. Because after back surgery, here's the question, how do I get bigger and stronger without loading myself up with massive amounts of weights? I said, hey, the brag like they're they're not gonna let me lift heavy. So how can I create enough stress to actually get a hypertrophic response? Because I've lost twenty pounds post surgery I really wanna be able to train pain free, but also see some progress. So we came up with the system eight by eight, eight sets of eight reps with thirty second rest and three second negatives, things that recruit into muscle microtearing time under tension, truncated rest periods to exacerbate metabolic stress. And and all that stuff. And with just forty percent of a one rep max, which is like you could warm up with forty percent. Right? And I was shocked that after the twelve weeks, I was like, holy shit. I got twenty five pounds of mass on me eating a caloric surplus in doing this program with all light lifting. And so that was the first book.

0:27:45
Now with that first book, it's a great introduction because it's super simple. It's super light. It's that's how I started. It it's the easiest entry point for people. Three days a week. Right? You just trade three days a week. And I like it for people coming off of injury, people new to hypertrophy training. I love it for young athletes who are learning how to lift. Because it's some maximal load with slow and controlled movement. It's also great for, like, blending with crossfit because you can still do it and do crossfit on the other days. As long as it's, like, not more, like, heavy lifting stuff. And and so that was, like, the first we kinda got that approach going. Yeah. Yeah. And since then, like, we actually like, we took that book.

0:28:24
One of the pieces of feedback we got was, like, yeah. It's fun. It's we can be effective. We have people that have put on, like, tons of muscle doing it. We had a guy who lost a hundred pounds doing it. And I'm like, it's kinda funny. It's a dead huge program, but he totally Yeah. You know, lost lost a lot of fat, but also gained a lot of knee muscle mass even though his weight was weighed down.

0:28:42
And then, you know, because it's like three months of kind of the same thing, I was like, we need to rewrite this and get rid of the Monotony and make it a progression. So, like, this whole past year, I spent writing this new book, which is crushing it right now, which is the get huge program reloaded. And what we did now is we just made it a three month progression starting with lightweight and then moving up towards heavier and heavier loadings. This is so nice. Well, like, aggressive stuff. All these dips are, like, de load weeks We also put in, you know, like, because it could get really long. Yeah. We just created it to just four progressive overload movements each day and then two finishers.

0:29:18
Methods and the mechanisms that are, like, the cool the really cool methods, but are a little bit more advanced. So you see that, like, in our muscle hierarchy program. But what I wanted to do is give people at least some exposure to some of these really cool methods like overload eCentryx, isometrics, drop sets, partial supersets, all these really nasty things where you cannot just to make a, you know, take a heavyweight. It's not about taking a heavyweight and making it feel easy, but a lot of these things, these mechanisms are about taking lightweights and making them really, really challenging and really hard via some of these principles we incorporate. Yeah. So -- Yeah. -- so that's kinda like how the whole thing started. Yeah.

0:29:54
I mean, you got you you you had passed where I was asking, and that's okay. I figured you would. I appreciate it. I mean, I I wanna dive into all of that. And, yeah, that program was my introduction, and I would say, yes, it was pretty in it was very intense. It was sort of, quote unquote, longer than an hour a day. And, yes. And then I jumped in the muscle liner. Okay? I've I've I've tested it all out. And I guess one of the things that I wanted to ask you, this this is sort of one of the bigger questions that I, like, to know, is that there's so many different variations of fitness in the world today. There's so many different types of programs, all that sort of stuff. And like you said, it's very common to hear stories about I tried this program for a while. Didn't like him. I I got banged up, led to an injury, etcetera, etcetera.

0:30:34
How does, like, how does someone find the right balance or right program. Like, without just is it is it always just is the answer always gonna be trial and error? Like, you just have to try it, see how it goes, and move on to something. How does because we all know that each body is gonna be different and cross it isn't for everyone. And some people might be good across it. For x amount of time. Maybe longer doesn't matter. But, like, how do people navigate? Like, how does the weekend warrior or the fur person that isn't in a high level athlete? How do they find and navigate that?

0:31:03
I think there's a lot of variables in there that you could kinda consider. The first one is, like, what do you want and how fast do you want it? Right? That's like -- Okay. -- what are you what are you chasing? Right? Like, does your program look a little different? Right? If if you if you were there and you're like, hey, you know what? I wanna be, like, as big as possible, as muscular as possible. I don't care about my fitness that dictates a certain training and nutritional protocol. Versus like, hey, I'm trying to kind of balance general physical fitness with physicality. That probably looks like a little more like a compromise or even all the way down and be like, you know I only pursue general physical fitness, but I wanna, like, compliment this stuff a little bit into my program so I can address some weaknesses or some areas of injury. But I think that the the problem is that, you know, you're always changing, you're always evolving. So what's the best program for you? It really probably depends on where you're at right now.

0:31:54
When I was in my early twenties, you know, cross it was fun. I it really didn't matter what I did in my early twenties. I'd probably respond to it, you know. My body could handle it. It was okay. I was still seeing improvement in this and that. As you get older, you realize, like, you know what, I don't really respond well to that or that that that's not a good idea for me. I typically injure myself doing something like that or it doesn't serve my goals. Right?

0:32:17
So it's like one of the things I found that as I was in CrossFit and I started exploring hypertrophy, people tried to peer pressure me into their training goals. Right? They tried to be like, well, what about the open? Like, aren't you concerned about, well, I don't care about the open, you know? I don't I don't I don't I just want one last week. It did not be hurt. You know? And still be able to do stuff. But like, I don't I don't care. Or, you know, even trading methodologies. Well, Greg said this and Greg said that. And I'm like, yeah. But, like, Do you wanna look like Greg? Or or whatever, you know. So Yeah. It evolves as you go.

0:32:53
But I think there are some things as an athlete that you can always think about, which is what program? And this goes for all decisions in and around training. What program allows me to accumulate the most quality, high value repetition? So a quality, high value repetition is something where You're moving well with good orthopedic integrity. You know, you're building positional strength. You're keeping yourself safe and good intensity. Right? Where you're pushing yourself to the point where there's going to be an adaptation because you're able to flirt with the failure of the muscle. You know, what program allows me to accumulate the most amount of those quality high value petitions over very, very long periods of time. Not a day, not a week, not a year, but over years. Right? What allows you to do that consistently over years? Because that's really where any type of remarkable progress is gonna take place. Progress over a week. A lot of people will they'll do a program, they'll see improvement, and then they'll plateau and come back down because they're they're not able to consistently be able to push that intensity and the quality repetitions.

0:33:54
And and, you know, I I dealt with Cam. I'm like, man, you know, if I could've just, like, pull back, like, twenty percent on the intensity. I probably could have done it for a lot longer if I just didn't go as heavy as possible or as fast as possible and just went, you know, kind of fast I probably couldn't get going, but this is not my personality. That's the things I love about fitness. It's like pushing yourself. And like I said, just that a a dread claim response of, like, taking yourself to the point of failure, I just gotta find a way to do it safely. You know? And and so CrossFit was not the answer for that. Specifically.

0:34:25
We saw incorporate across it into our program -- Sure. -- but it's like a very nice user friendly version across. You've probably seen it in our, like, conditioning workouts where, like, everything is nothing is, like, the hypertrophy training is where we develop size and strength. That's the resistance, the heavy mechanical loading. In the conditioning, The conditioning is conditioning. It's meant to get your heart rate up. It's meant to practice good athletic movements. It's about to build some some stamina and capacity. But, like, we're not doing like super high skill, spot snatches, and muscle ups because, you know, for for a lot of people, that's just gonna affect their ability to accumulate quality repetitions over time. So we'll practice more foundational stuff, push ups and pull ups, you know, all all that kind of stuff that you still get a great training effect from, but doesn't quite have the same level of risk.

0:35:13
And, you know, we have so many people now in our program, I've realized that, like, well, some people still wanna pursue that fitness at the elite level, So we come up with scaling options for the workouts, so they're like three levels. Don't hurt me hurt me a little, and I wanna burn. So if you're a psychopath, you know, you can see, I wanna burn option and get, like, across the game's level workout. But if you're, like, me or you're probably most of our people, you just do the don't hurt me or hurt me a little. And you're able now I'm like, you know, what's nice is, you know, you can put down long periods of of time where you're not you're not getting the the hiccups. Right? You're not you're not getting injuries. You're not getting banged up. You can still progressively push yourself.

0:35:54
And then a lot of that also comes into the formula of the program allowing for that stress recovery. Right, allowing for the healing and remodeling and tissues and hormones so that you can actually see progress because that was one of my second big criticisms thoughts that they saw over time. It's like the reason why people are not getting improvement is because they're never even getting the chance to to to adapt. Right? It's like, Maxwell, it's Monday. Maxwell, it's Wednesday. It tends to intensity. Yeah.

0:36:22
I'm like, where where does the adaptation take place? A certain point when you're out of that honeymoon period, where do you get the time to allow the microtearing of muscles to heal and remodel? You know, when you get the time to to let the tremendous stress hormones like cortisol, when do you get to get that chance to actually come back to a normal state so you can be anabolic. So, you know, it's just it's not what you're doing, but how you're doing it that actually makes the most difference. Because like I mentioned, like, the functional loop is magical. Everyone should -- Yes. -- but it has to be done, like, any potent prescription. It has to be done responsible. Yeah.

0:37:00
And I think that's, like, That's what I love. That's what I really like about where we are right now in fitness. Like your program, there's other like Marcus Philly, there's Nick Bear, there's hybrid, fitness, more or less. Right? You're picking. We're plucking from the good parts of, like, what we call, I guess, strength and conditioning, something like Olympic lifting, endurance, you know, the the basic principles of fitness, and then you kind of pull it all in to build this sort of program that's sort of a hybrid of everything. Everything, it doesn't have to be one sort of perspective. And I and I I think back to, like, you know, when my my dad, he was a bodybuilder back in the day. And I know, like, nineties bodybuilding, right, chalky protein powder, raw eggs, salone, Arnold, steroids, all that sort of stuff.

0:37:43
It didn't seem like it was in the state of longevity. Right? It was just like, didn't really seem healthy on the outside looking end. Right? But it seems like our culture is more focused on, like, balanced lifestyle and, like, a balanced program. Where cross they came from.

0:37:58
Right? I mean, it it started with, like, you know, I don't know what the exact story is, but, like Greg got kicked out of Gold's Gym. Okay? Right. Right. Well, we got people crawling on the rafters or whatever. But yeah. I mean, like, when you look at it, like, I was mentioning, like, you go to the regular gym and and you see just, like, a bunch of people on machines not working hard and not getting results.

0:38:20
So it's a whole model based on January first. Right? January first is as many times as you can. By January twenty ninth, half of them aren't even showing up anymore. Yeah. You know, it's it's it's not a great model.

0:38:31
It's also not a great model for the trainer because, you know, trainers, you you couldn't really have much of a career in training being, like, a trainer at a at a club gym. You really either end up your own gym or your own product. You you know, the people making you fitness for, like, billing blanks a TiVo kit box and -- Yeah. -- P90X. Used that as, you know, p90X DVDs. But other than that, you know, you're you're kind of living a life of poverty as a trainer. And now it's like, well, no, if you're a trainer, you're the practitioner, you know, you can create your own community around you by having your own small group fitness model. And, you know, if you know, in in in training. Right?

0:39:07
And, like, you look at, like, like, club gyms like Equinox. Right? That's a high high level club gym in in New York or a New York sports club with this and that. There's people that have memberships these kids. I don't know what the membership price points are. It's usually, like, between, like, maybe twenty nine and fifty nine dollars or something. Maybe it's more expensive than Equinox.

0:39:28
And that model is based on just getting as many sign ups as you can. Yes. A lot of the members, most of them don't show. The one member in that model, that is the most pain in the ASK member is the group exercise class attendee. So it's the person who is in the gym every day is always complaining, oh, the spin bike is broken. The yoga blocks are getting old. Like, they're taking advantage of these small group classes which are being offered to them for free in these club gyms for fifty nine dollars a month.

0:39:57
And then we take that model and we flip it upside down and say, oh, you like spin class? Well, how about this? We're gonna do soul cycle. And it's gonna be spin class with disco balls. And instead of you paying fifty nine a month, how about you pay thirty a class? Because now this is a part of your identity. You know, like -- Yeah. -- like, you're you're soul cycle athlete. You're across me. So so like that that just totally flips it on its head and takes that pain in the ass member, and make some your most lucrative member, you know, to be able to draw from.

0:40:29
And so I think that's what you see kind of across the industry as you see that with orange theory fitness with bar method. I mean, you need all these little studios where they're creating mini communities and taking that price model and be like, oh, no. No. It's a small group training model. Right? Where it's like, you you can pay, you know, you could do a one on one session with beach ad for, you know, whatever, a hundred bucks an hour or you can pay two hundred a month to be in a group of five people that you're getting the same amount of attention. And by the way, you're probably pushing harder because you don't want to look like a beach. You know. So it's it's an interesting evolution. But that old model is being graduated, you know. It's and it's having to slowly evolve. Yeah. For sure.

0:41:13
I mean, I have to ask you since we're talking about it. Like, what is, like, what is your view on the future of fitness? Like, we went through COVID. Right? We saw the introduction of virtual everything and home gyms and garage gyms, you know, taking a peek. Now it's kinda come down to, like, a normal level. What is the next, like, five years look like. We have all these group training, like, these very niche, like, boutique type of fitness popping up everywhere.

0:41:36
What is your take on sort of the future of fitness? What? Well, good gyms will always do well. Whether you're a club gym or a crossfit gym or a powerlifting gym, because they're there for the program and the community and as the owner and operator, that's something you can control. Right? So people feel like you're you know, they're part of your family.

0:41:58
And it's one of the things that's hard with online trainees. Like, I'm not there with the athletes. So I try to find any opportunity to interact with them, to give them a little bit more, and to make them feel like they're part of the part of the club, part of the team, you know, and, you know, if you could do that well then you're gonna have a great business no matter what you're doing. Nothing trumps the When's the first Thunder BroJIM opening up? We so, yes. Let's go. That'd be awesome. We have our first Thunderbolt affiliate in Massachusetts. I can't remember our our our program assistant Justin opened the gym, and he's running the first one. And Kathy and I are now moving offices.

0:42:33
So, typically, we've been working out of our house. We got offices that we're opening up in across the Westchase down here in Tampa. So we'll have another kind of secondary location at all. That's exactly what happened. But Yeah. Right to us. Right to us if you wanna open up. It you know, for for us. We're actually we're actually right now designing the educate because, like, my background is honestly mostly education. I've taught four hundred seminars over a decade on fitness. Like education for me is really my sweet spot. And so we're creating a whole educational system in which we can actually create, like, Thunderbird coaches, and those are the people that we would, you know, try to give the life to. Yeah. That's great. Approach it. But, anyways, back to the question, like, where where is it going? Good will always do well.

0:43:16
I think that overall, I think we're gonna see a lot of people and, you know, folks, if you're out there and you're a gym owner and have it cross that are take this with a grain of salt, please. But I think we're gonna see a lot of people leave CrossFit and move towards other methodologies that better serve their needs and goals. And so I I think that could look like, you know, programs like Thunderbird, you know, they're they're even like, you know, club gyms. Like, I went to a gym in in Colorado called ARMOUR's Progym. And it's a kind of a club gym, but it's privately owned, and it has this awesome community of culture it's the same thing. It's a fraternity. Like, you create a great fraternity in your gym. People are gonna love being there. And so I think we'll see a lot of people kind of moving towards that stuff.

0:43:59
And I think just in general, we're seeing, you know, my same journey of going from, like, I wanna be an elite athletic performer to, like, I'd like to be pretty good. But I really wanna look awesome, you know. So I think we're gonna see a lot of that type of stuff, a lot of crossover, you know, being being one of the first I don't know, you know, one of the first CrossFit athletes to go from, you know, competing at CrossFit to competing at US nationals and bodybuilding, you know, like, I got a lot of pushback from the bodybuilding community about, like, how silly crossfitters are. Just same way you get pushback about how silly bodybuilders are. The truth is, Now I got a lot of them doing some more fun athletic stuff because I think the idea of physical culture is what's most appealing to me. Pursuing these things at the highest level is not a healthy thing, whether it's CrossFit or Body Building or, you know, the winning the New York State Marathon or whatever. Like, it's not gonna be a healthy thing, but I like the idea of being able to play in all fields, you know.

0:44:59
And I think that idea of of physical culture is that The most athletic guys and girls are also the best looking. And performance and aesthetics are tied together. And there's a reason why elite athletes look like elite athletes prefer a population of people where ninety nine percent of folks are going into a gym because they want to look good and feel good, but usually they say look good first, we should be able to deliver that. We should be able to get people into the best aesthetics of their life and not diminish it as a goal or say like mirrors are silly, mirrors are not silly, mirrors of the most rewarding things that you can have is where you can evaluate your physical progress and you should be proud of your work and you should be able to wear that work on your body But there's, you know, it's not either or. It's both together. It's it's format function. Yeah. No. That's great. And I I think it's totally true.

0:45:48
Like, the the local gym that we have here, limitless performance, not in across the affiliate. There is a huge group like I think that almost a hundred members in the group now do endurance and Iron Man and Triathlon training that's just started during COVID. Is a bigger book like, let's call them, CrossFit athletes, they do the the gymnastics, all those stuff in there. It's just basic strength programming. So I love the idea of hybrid. Like, in the past three years, I've done CrossFit, I've done Thunder Row, I've done a golf rotational program, like, I love the idea of being able to kind of hybrid at all to try to find just like your own best physical self. So I love that. I love that. Yeah. And you and you know it's fun to take on new challenges, like Nick, you said, fresh. Yeah.

0:46:33
One of the things I was acutely aware of just in terms of where I knew I wanted to go as a coach and as a business was just understanding that difference between knowledge and information. Right? And so so information is stuff you can read in a book. Right? I can take out, you know, Brad's science in the psychotherapy book and read it and say, oh, the optimal rep range is eight to twelve petitions of blah blah blah, you know? And a lot of people in the fitness industry do that. They just regurgitate information. They're basically like they're they're like they're like actors. Okay? Let's just, like, reading a script. And then there's knowledge. And knowledge doesn't come as easy. Right? Knowledge comes by doing. Knowledge comes by practicing.

0:47:21
So, you know, if if I was going to say, like, hey, I I'm going to be the functional hypertrophy x I'm gonna be the expert on blending body building with CrossFit. I think I have the knowledge in CrossFit, having been in there for so long, competed, teaching decades, you know, like I've probably taught a lot of people listening to this podcast have probably taken a course by me. K? So so that credibility and that knowledge was there. When I started getting an hypertroopy, I I was thinking, you know what? I cannot bullshit this. And a lot of people do. They're like, I'm a bodybuilding expert, but they don't really know bodybuilding. They mimic bodybuilding, but they've never done it.

0:48:00
Bodybuilding is a whole can of worms and you're not bodybuilding until you're, you know, you're you're preparing to get on stage. Right? You're you're going through a period of of accumulation where you're gaining mass, size, and symmetry, and then you're bringing out muscular definition and trying to peel down and shrink fat cells and hold on to your muscle and, you know, bring out things like muscle separation, vascularity, muscle striation, like, that stuff, like, is is is bodybuilding, and it's all very, very hard. And the hardest thing about it is not what's inside the gym, but it's the lifestyle around it. To be able to take your body to a level that it doesn't want to normally or naturally go, and then being able to present that on stage and being able to actually Show that, like, you didn't just get ready for show, but you've seen improvement over years, and you can take that and repeat it with athletes. And so, like, I think that that that piece to me was so important to compete in bodybuilding and get street credibility in bodybuilding. Hey, this guy is a top national competitor who's competed in every men's bodybuilding category. So he's not just talking the talk. Like, he actually knows what he's doing, and he has a level of respect for both that community and CrossFit.

0:49:15
Because there are a lot of people out there that are gonna say, like, I'm in bodybuilding. And so many crossfitters, like, I was telling you, Chad, like, so many crossfitters think they've done bodybuilding. They're like, oh, yeah. I used to go and do leg extensions, three sets of ten, and it doesn't really work for me. That's not body building. Body building is really fucking hard. But here's the the silver lining on it.

0:49:34
As a cross fitter, you learn so many valuable skills. And the most valuable skills you learn are how to move. So you know how to do these high value complex functional movements. You know how to deadlift properly, the back squat to press. Like, you know, you you you understand how to do these things where you get the most bang for your buck so to speak out of these high utility movements. And you also know how to work really hard. Like, you'll do pull ups until you're fucking against me. Now, all we need to do is take those skills and channel them in the right direction where you're doing things on purpose with purpose, and you see massive progress. So as crossfitter, kind of going back to body building, but then understanding these things, utilizing whatever, you know, like, our program is kind of a high ring you get the functional movements in that. But even if you went back to doing leg presses or leg extensions, you would be so much better at it. Because you you have you know how to push.

0:50:28
And like the body, it does one thing. Like, the body is designed to survive. And that survival mechanism is the catalyst for expectation. So if you're able to get uncomfortable and do that consistently, you're gonna get really big changes. This gives you the right type of stress. And there needs to be the right kind of lifestyle around it.

0:50:46
So I think for me, like, blending that with with kind of functional fitness was a great jumping off point. But even that I've competed in bodybuilding and you can kinda see just like cross the accessibility of doing it at the highest level and how that's not really what I want. Now Camille and I are, like, signing up for marathons, and I wanna be, like, the biggest most muscular marathoner. Or, you know what I mean? So it's still, like, it's performance in aesthetics. But now you can play in different fields. I'm like, yes, you should be able to step on stage and look awesome or enter a powerlifting meet or run a ten k. Like, you should be able to play on all sides of the fence.

0:51:20
That idea of physical culture is the difference between an individual methodology and just someone who is, like, just just seeking to see the wonders of what their body can do. And what is that highest level of base that highest baseline level that you can maintain in terms of performance and composition, and strength, and and all these things, that you could just kind of live there always, whether you're running a marathon or doing a bodybuilding show, or competing at the Crosby games. Yeah. Cammy. Was it so Cammy, you did she Cammy has, like, she's a little late to the party. Okay? Because, like, I took the job first. And then she followed me. So she's been on stage two as a cute. You're still I was gonna say she was still competing. Yeah. That's still competing. And I was like, yeah.

0:52:19
And and by the way, like, not not, you know, not to I'm not gonna name easier. But, like, when I was still, like, in cross learning teaching seminars, coaching campaigns, competing, and all that stuff. And I started saying, like, hey. I'm gonna do a bodybuilding show. I'm gonna do a bodybuilding show. People thought it was like a joke. They were laughing. And And it was a and they were and they were laughing at me. And then and then, you know, like, is he serious? He's serious when he's doing it. And then same people, I get a chance in the sense of the same people, that were laughing at me, circle back, and they were like, hey, I think I wanna do that. No. For sure. I mean, I think you've done it. You've done a great job very much.

0:53:01
I'm sure it was very difficult in intimidating to try to go into a new area without that street credibility. Right? So, like, good for you for, like, jumping and learning about it and actually, like, building up the case that, like, you can do it. And I think you do it the right way. And I think we're in good hands in this in the sense of, like, being able to get to this level of, like, doing all sorts of different types of fitness tests or doing all sorts of different balance fitness because I think folks like you that kind of just don't just say I can do and I and I did it, they actually you dive into it and learn about it and actually, like, walk the walk kind of thing. Right? So I think that's, like, kudos to you. And I I don't wanna I don't wanna talk about, hey, for richer feet a little bit.

0:53:39
Like, what like, I guess, for the listeners, like, what are the benefits for sort of, you know, the weekend wire or for anybody to sort of either do a hypertrophy program or to sprinkle in hypertrophy and accessory type of thing for maybe someone that might be, you know, endurance athlete or maybe someone's across that are who knows? Like, What are the big benefits that you see that you've learned and that you're teaching about the hypertroovy sort of aspect of training? Well, first off, you know, we kinda speak with certain level of vernacular that can sometimes be over people's head. So let's start by saying, hypertrophy is the method, the the mechanism by which muscles grow. When a cell increases in size beyond its normal size, it's gone through hypertrophy. And that growth can come from a a number of places. It can come from stress, from hormonal stimulation, or from an increased workload.

0:54:29
For the sake of what we're talking about, we're referring to hypertrophy of the striated skeletal muscle, the muscle that puts action on bones. Because there's all different types of muscles in your body. They're muscles like your tongue, your heart, your, you know, your your your your your internal and intestines out muscle. We're talking about the muscle that puts action on bones, the ones that are striated. And what we wanna see out of that is an increased cross section size and strength of muscle. So as muscles become bigger, they become thicker, they become stronger, and their tensile strength increases, so that you can then apply more force to whatever it is you're doing, whether you're pressing a barbell or jumping up the size you can or or whatever it is.

0:55:09
Your contractile potential refers to how well you're able to recruit your muscle. So it's kind of thinking about, like, the software. Like, how how well is your brain communicating with your body in terms of inter and intramuscular coordination? Like how hard and strong can a muscle fiber and how does it coordinate with the other fibers to be able to express maximum maximum power? What we're referring to is not the neurological pieces, but the biological pieces of the act small cross sectional size and strength of a muscle fiber. And when a muscle fiber grows typically, you'll see things like muscle microtearing So those are acute large tears in the sarcoma, the outer membrane sheath of a muscle fiber, the one that insulates it, When you do something like heavy loading, especially heavy loading as a muscle is lengthening in what we call an eccentric type of type of movement, where you can kind of think of the phases of movement as eccentric is when muscles lengthen, concentric is when they shorten.

0:56:09
So anytime that you're losing the fight, that would be an eccentric movement. But when you're controlling that eccentric lengthening under load, you're able to accumulate damage to muscle fibers like muscle microtearing and also damage to the myosin and actin bonds in the internal components of a muscle fiber These are the proteins that hook onto each other and shorten to be able to to get a muscle to to contract. And when those bonds are damaged, the body is, you know, it wants to survive. So that adaptation process allows them to heal and remodel thicker and more numerous or contain what they call myogenesis, which is an increased number and size of those myosin and active bonds. So I always compare it to Velcro. If you ever look closely at piece of Velcro. There's always one side with a bunch of little hooks and another piece of felt and the hooks fuck out of the felt. Well, when your those myosin enacted bonds are like the felt in the hooks, And when you damage those fibers and you get myogenesis, now there are more hooks, but those hooks are thicker and stronger. So they can contract harder.

0:57:09
So that's where increased performance integrates with hypertrophy. Right? I hope I wasn't using too many big words there. But, yeah, bigger and stronger go together. There's no denying that obviously, you wanna get the most out of your neurology. Right? You wanna you wanna tap things out and there's always a component of just like kinesthetic awareness and increasing your interin intramuscular coordination. But from a biological standpoint, it's just building the size and strength of muscles. Okay.

0:57:39
And outside of, like, the physical the physical goals for hypertrophy type training, Is there other you were talking about before functional fit the the idea of functional fitness and hypertrophy? So, like, what are the advantages in sort of benefits that you see from a from outside of the just the physical force, like, from a functional fitness or performance base? Or is it just, like, you're getting stronger? So you're getting stronger. So I or is it gonna be I get bigger. I'm gonna be less mobile. Am I gonna still retain you know, my positioning in a functional fitness level?

0:58:16
You know, if I may answer your question, honestly, Chad, and I look at myself and my athletes and, like, what was the biggest benefit of incorporating this type of training into a program? It's injury prevention. By far, number one, it's always the feedback I get. For the first time, I feel like I can train hard and not get hurt. Right? And so, you know, the idea of creating a program where you can progressively overload muscles and push intensity without getting banged up I think that to me is the number one benefit and a reason why you might incorporate this. When you've hit a plateau, you're constantly injured, when you're really getting broken down, and you get that defeatist attitude. Like, I guess it's all downhill from here. I guess I'm getting older. There's no more, you know, right, back spots going down. I'm always gonna hurt. Like, things are moving in the wrong direction.

0:59:08
We talk about that spectrum of of fitness. Right? And what is it? We use all these bottles and crossfit, like, sick well and fit, and I'm like, just kind of sliding past well. Yeah, like when that work capacity that we wanna get up as early as possible and as high as possible starts to decline, This up to me, this is the answer. This is the unexplored room, and this is where the most opportunity is. Like, the opportunity is not in in getting, like, a little bit better position of a spot snatcher. Learning how to move a little bit quicker, like those improvements are fractional and marginal, and they really don't represent much physical change. This is the biggest opportunity, the biggest room for growth. Is just increasing the physical size of the muscle fibers. And along with that, there's also, for all of our athletes, huge room for improvement in terms of their body composition. Because just like we've kinda scratched surface with functional movements, it's like, you know, you meet people where they're at. Right? If I had somebody who's never trained before, just active setting foot in the gym is gonna give them improvement. They can lift two hands if they want. It doesn't matter what type of training them. At least they're training. But as you gain capacity. Now you gotta need a little bit smarter, a little bit better.

1:00:15
The same thing applies to nutrition. It's like, I think crossfitters, like, from a nutritional perspective, we're doing some things right. Like, they're, okay, they're not eating the traditional western diet. They're not eating pizza and soda at least most of the time, they're not. But they're they're eating more whole foods, high utility, available micro and macronutrients, you know, things with good bioavailability, things that are are good for increasing insulin sensitivity and health markers in general. Like, I think that's a great idea to have a diet that has a lot of good high quality whole foods. But they've again, they just scratched the surface with that. Yep.

1:00:50
And one of the things that has been a big aha understanding moment for me you know, moving to hypertrophy and bodybuilding, kind of understanding the overlap between these two is that, like, the same way you need to push yourself in the gym. Right? Like, you gotta put a little bit more weight on the bar. You gotta try to do one more repetition. You gotta push yourself to failure, a little bit harder to continue to adapt. I think everyone's on board for that. But when it comes to nutrition, it's exactly the same. If you're trying to get your body to move, it's gotta be a little uncomfortable to get there. Whether you're gaining mass or whether you're trying to shrink the size of fat cells, like you you to get that stress response, that adaptation, you gotta be a little bit hungry. Or you or you gotta be a little bit tired like that's just your body telling you, that's the right amount of stress to get to get get to move.

1:01:37
And so that level of precision and accuracy becomes so much more important now in terms of tracking macronutrients and not using some kind of blanket prescription like, well, I eat paleo. Be like, that's great. That's good enough to get you to a certain point. But now what about all this funny Florida area that you haven't even tapped into yet. Yeah. So that that is like a whole another can of worms to to open up and get into in terms of, like, where where the evolution of the improvement was? Yes.

1:02:04
I think as time goes by I think slowly just like now, it's kind of seeping into the community. And it's like, hey, we do a little tempo training here and there across itself. That type of precision accuracy, that type of information that we know, like, as as a as a body building, it's like what you do outside the gym is is more important than what you're doing inside you know, your yes. For sure. Internal chemistry, your energy status is gonna dictate which way your body is moving way more than whether you did fifteen or twelve repetition. Of that. So For sure. Yes. So I think that's kinda slow. People are gonna start to understand that. I think we're gonna see more crossfitters, and I know even in Thunderbrook, we have more and more crossfitters doing their first bodybuilding show, to get that experience, to get that knowledge, because, like, if you wanna know how good you can book.

1:02:51
You're like, I wonder, how awesome I could look like? What am I capable of? That's the best way to find out. Nothing will create a better sense of fear, desperation, and anxiety. Then knowing at a certain date, at a certain time, at a certain place, you're gonna be naked on a stage, which above the Jack dudes and a panel of judges looking to pick you apart in front of a crowd of people. It's not hard to stick to your diet. It's not hard to stick to your trading at that level of desperation hanging over you. And so to me, I think everyone should get a chance to experience that to understand, like, If you wanted to get the very most out of your aesthetics, what would that look like? And now that you've been to that extreme, where can you comfortably live? You know, just by downshift? Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that base thing I was talking about. It's like just increasing that baseline. Yeah. I I wanna talk to nutrition.

1:03:45
But before before that, I'm glad that you talked to well, hypertrophy is, like, injury prevention. It's great hearing that the community says says the same thing. And I when I was doing the the muscle intergroup programming, like, my squad is not my best lift. I'm six foot five, you know, two hundred and twenty pounds. I'm not the best squatter. But I would say doing, you know, low vol sorry, low weight, high volume, my squat never felt better, right, from a movement perspective. And and for sure, I wouldn't say, like, I didn't necessarily test, like, you know, one rep max or anything like that, but I for sure felt stronger in that position. So I would definitely agree with that type of programming helping out in that way in injury prevention. But I wanted to jump into, like, this idea of, like, What is it? Like, first, maybe let's start off.

1:04:38
You went through a number of different injuries. It sounds like you you had a pretty critical injury that kind of moved you from cross it into figure out how to rehab properly. How, like, And I I probably say most people in the fitness industry have have an injury at some point whether it's minimal setback or a major injury like yourself. How do you sort of how did you face such a significant injury and come out the other end and it sounds like in a better way? I'm I'm sure I always look at injuries as, like, more of a mental test than a physical test in most cases. How did how did you do that? Like, how did you look at that and just go through that and get through that because oftentimes when and even when I get banged up, it's just like, man, it's like it feels like the end of the world. Even though it's not, we get a bigger deal in our heads than it probably is. But I love your insight on on sort of how do you get through injuries, how do you approach injuries, knowing that injuries, you know, do happen Obviously, you have the answer for preventing injuries with Thunderbird. But Well, it's so first off, it's a big question.

1:05:42
You you Chad, my self, probably most of the listeners out there, we're probably very similar in that. We get a tremendous amount of joy in expressing our bodies athletically. Right? We talked about at the very beginnings, like, well, sports was my safe place. Right? We get so much joy in in being able to use our bodies and pursue athleticism do these these really fun. I like this is this is my happy place. Right? And so when that gets taken away from you, or gets, you know, hurt in some way, it is emotionally hurtful to you. So it's a totally normal response to be like, bummed out. Like, people who don't care about fitness probably don't get bummed out if they get injured. They're like -- Right. -- excuse to not train. Yes. So in the catch to to get out of gym glass. Yeah. A binge on some movies. Yeah. Exactly.

1:06:32
Unless, like, some chill, you know, like, for for you or me or most of people listening, it probably kind of, like, feels like taking the wind down to your sails. I was just getting momentum. I was really excited about that leg day coming up next week and all of a sudden quick. And, fuck, I can't tie my shoes. Like, my back is hurt or my shoulder's hurt or what? You know, we would, you know, insert injury here.

1:06:53
But The long you do this, you realize that if you are of that personality where you are pursuing things, right, and you're pushing yourself. You're going to experience injuries, like, you know, race car drivers, they always kinda they're gonna they're gonna hit the wall sometimes. You're gonna bang. You're gonna bang up. Some are worse than others. Some injuries you're fine in a day or two. Of injuries, take months or, you know, recover from.

1:07:17
And so I think first, it's like, you know, that understand that that emotional response is normal, that's fine, that just means you care, and it's because it's near and dear to you. But don't let that get in the way of your goals. Right? You can still pursue things so many times like when you get injured, you end up focusing on what you can't do. Right? I'm like, oh, I hurt my back. I can't deadlift. I can't back squat. How am I gonna train? I can't do heavy weight lifting? Like, it's just you become this very defeatist. Kind of mentality and you are unable to see the opportunities in front of you because if you ask yourself what can I do? Well, I can't work on this thing that I've always kind of been avoiding, or I can't do, you know, fix this issue, which is why the problem originally happened. You know, like, I had a buddy who tore his back. He was a Olympic competitor tore his back. He was super bummed out. And he was just, like, so so sad. And I was, like, dude, your legs gonna be so you know, and and so, like, just let go of the emotion, take it from what it is. You know, like, I think so many times we focus on how we perceive things versus what really is. Right? What is? Okay. Well, you can't do this, but you can't do that, so do that.

1:08:29
It comes to managing injury, you know, first thing you do is you will eliminate the pain generating movements. You take this stuff out that's gonna hurt you. You find ways to continue to train because movement is healing. So you gotta keep moving. Don't stop training. But keep yourself moving. That'll only accelerate the healing process. And then you need to find ways to address that injury with some type of therapy or intervention or something to kind of fix it up or keep it from happening again. If you're doing those things, every time you get injured, you usually come out better. You know, you usually come out stronger, you usually learn a little something.

1:09:01
And I've had injuries that have been major and minor. The most major is the back injury. And that was, like, scary, probably scariest because, you know, I was wheezing feeling in my legs. And so I was like, am I gonna be able to walk? Is this gonna affect me the rest of my life? Like, you know, that was really scary to face that. But then, you know, like, sometimes the intervention is rehab, sometimes the intervention is back surgery.

1:09:24
And, you know, when I had the back surgery, I kind of went into it. Like, most people kind of bummed out. Like, I was excited. I was like, man, I get to experience this. I'm gonna have athletes that are gonna experience it too. I'm gonna be able to talk them through it and relate them. I'm gonna get you know, the doctor's gonna tell me it's gonna be six months to recover. I know I'm gonna do it too. Like, you know, it's gonna be really it's gonna be cool. It's gonna be a whole new adventure. Like, I'm worried about it. Right? Like, you know, our our faith, and we should love it. We should love our our faith. So it's all whether it's good or bad, those are things that we assign to. Right? So so yeah.

1:09:57
I I kind of like I I wasn't bummed out at all about the bachelor's. I was excited about it. It was like, I'm gonna get to be healed up. I'm gonna be better. I'm gonna learn a ton. I'm gonna come stronger. And when I'm through this, like, wow. How lucky am I to live in a place where one A surgery intervention is available to me. Like, somebody can fix me too. I can afford it. I have insurance that's gonna cover it. And and three, I have a support system to help help me through it. I also don't have to stop working either. I do my work in a computer. Like, how lucky am I? Where if this happened in a different time, in a different place, you know, you're fucked. So Yeah. So yeah.

1:10:31
I I think that when it's just all about, like, your perspective on it and and focusing on what you can do and finding, you know, finding ways to make it a victory that, you know, post surgery, I remember Cam was with me very hard surgery, like, challenging recovery, two weeks on your back on accounts, couldn't get up, couldn't go to the bathroom. So Cam would have to, like, take this portable ear at all and, like, you know, let me pee or whatever. But, you know, you're stuck on your back and I'm looking up at the ceiling and I'm going, gosh, you know, you're so lucky to be given this new lease on life, you know, you're maybe not now, but in the near future, you're gonna be and around pain free, able to feel in your legs, able to start training again. How are you gonna honor that? Like, how are gonna give that the respect that it deserves. Are you gonna just go back to doing what you were doing before and not change anything and end up back on the surgery table, just kinda like squander that gift Or are you gonna use this as a catalyst to evolve and to become something more and to make you the strength?

1:11:31
So know, I was thinking like, what do I wanna do when I can train again? I could compete in CrossFit and I'm like, oh, that's a feeling of being the resident again. I know. No. It's gonna get me hurting end of, like, a media powerlifting. I can be really strong in the polar vortex bench press. I'm like, no. It's probably gonna pop attending off the bone. Okay.

1:11:48
So, like, what about bodybuilding? Like, I've never really done it before. I've never really explored it before. And that's when my nose ended up in the textbooks and I started just trying to surround myself with great minds and hypertrophy. And I was lucky that I lived in a place out in Colorado where I had access to Arbor's Progym where I could hang out with Phil Heath every day and a lot of those high level trainers that could just teach me all the ins and outs and intricacies sees a body blow. It has to be a fucking sponge.

1:12:15
You know, like, it it was it was all a gift. You know? And it was like there's a book called the Gift of Injury. And I think you probably haven't read it, but I imagine it says it's the same thing. Right? I see I've seen it before. And I think probably that's, you know, that that might be I haven't read the books leave yet, but that probably would be the premise of something like that. It's like Well, you know. I mean, yeah, I I think I'm gonna clip this for and sent it to anywhere that has an entry because I think that's an amazing outlook. And I know that there's I'm sure there was dark days that you you went through, but, like, that's a great message. And and I mean, Yeah. I mean, kudos to you again.

1:12:49
Listen, you know, when you're out there and you're injured and and you're you're you're trying to come back. Right? It's hard enough. It's hard enough to bend over and try to put your shoes on when your back is killing you. And have the anxiety of, like, which movement am I gonna do? It's not gonna fuck me up. And to be able to, like, get in the corner and make the effort, like, it's painful. It's hard enough don't waste your time feeling sorry for yourself. That's just wasted energy. It's like like I said, like it's hard enough don't waste your time, you know, with unnecessary emotional energy that's just gonna take you away, be put on your big boy pants, you put on your adult version of your, you know, your ego and you just don't get it done. Yeah. No. Amazing. Amazing. I I know we're almost that time. I got a few questions left. I think we're about to do a part two for this for sure. Of course. Yeah. I wanted to ask you I I was thinking with this, you know, my wife were talking to the other day about, like, it feels like recovery.

1:13:51
The idea of recoveries at its peak. Right? We have mobility apps. We have programs. We have podcast talk we have knowledge bombs and podcasts of information all about recovery. We have cold, tough companies coming up every single month. Percussion guns, you can buy them at any single place, probably buy them at seven eleven. And, you know, PTs and sport doctors are sort of thriving in business.

1:14:10
Do you feel that we're sort of becoming reliant on recovery And are we, like, in our training, we're overdoing it knowing that we can just, quote unquote, like, fix it later. Like, do you feel like recovery is becoming this sort of band aid? Or is it something that you you have practiced for a long time and you think it's an essential part of becoming an optimal sort of human? Well, you you can only grow as much as you can recover, and there's no such thing as overtrained. There's only under recovered. Right? So it is good to to invest in that, but I don't think you need to go down what like, it's the cart before the horse in a lot of cases.

1:14:45
You see it with things like nutrition too. Can you just do the simple things well? You know, can you just do the simple things well? Are you are you getting the right amount of nutrients in your diet? To fuel yourselves and give them all the things for your internal chemistry to be able to heal and while your body wants to heal, it wants to survive, So are you giving it what it means to do that? Are you getting good deep, restful sleep every night? Are you getting nine hours of black out sleep? Are you getting enough three times to pee? Are you drinking enough during the day? Get enough hydration to hydrate yourselves to add to the elast diversity of tendons and the synovial fluid in your joints. These are the simple things, and you don't need to buy the eight hundred dollars massage gun to do it either.

1:15:29
The other stuff, like, I think a lot of this is marketing, a lot of this is money making. I'm sure there's some science behind it. But, you know, honestly, it's it's never one thing. It's never one thing. It's not training. It's not diet. It's not nutrition. But it's like a hundred fucking things you do every day to stack the deck in your favor. To try to be, you know, superhuman. And and and and, like, you know, if there was an easy pill, people would take it. And there are some pills that can be helpful. Like, you know, we can talk about testosterone, but it's never it's not one thing. It's gotta be it's more of a lifestyle. It's not you know, and it's not like a thing you do. It's more of like a habit that is who you are. Right? Like, that's that's really where these things is just how you It's not a it's not a diet. It's just like this is the baseline. This is because it's that, well, you know, living those things for a long period of time is where you really see the most benefit.

1:16:23
So, yeah, there's a lot of things you can do recovery. Everyone responds to something different. All the recovery devices you see out there are primarily predicated on the idea of blood flow, whether it's blood in or out of joints, that can be through massage therapy, it can be through acupuncture, it can be through hot cold contrast therapy, but it's all based on blood flow. So you can do that in a lot of different ways. You can do that with stretch bands, you know. Yeah. But I I think the idea also is movement. Right? And, like, all these people that are, like, how under recover? You know, how much movement are they actually doing every day? And and and not all movement needs to be intense one of the things Kevin and I have found is this the idea of consistently doing steady state cardio throughout the day.

1:17:03
Like, you know, we've got up with you fasted cardio every morning. I've been For me, that's been the biggest contributor to recovery and energy and digestion is just having that daily process of, like you said, you got up at five in the morning. Right? You get up and you move, you get sunlight exposure, you jump into something cold. Like, it's it's just going what around? And so, yeah, let's let's jump into that. So, yeah, so you mentioned testosterone.

1:17:27
I know that you're very open about the conversation. I know you're also I guess when we talk about it, right, there's that negative connotation of Asteroids and it's and I feel like now though, there's more information we don't talk about sport or performance and competing when we talk about just optimizing yourself, your optimal self. I feel like there's more of a conversation about the positive signs of it and the reasons for bringing it into you into your sort of protocols. Obviously, you you can't be sleeping two hours a night and then taking test shots or anything that's gonna help you. Right? You talked about sleep and get nutritional. Those are sort of things and make the tools that make it all work. So for you, you actively do blood work routinely to make sure that you're on top of things.

1:18:16
Like, how do you how does someone sort of understand the benefits and also understand some of the disadvantages of this through, and why would someone sort of look into this as an additional protocol? Well, well, first off, before you start the conversation, first, forget the rules. Okay? Forget the rules of your sport or what people say you are, you're not supposed to do or this and that. Like, address first, what do you want out of your life. Number one, what do you wanna have your life? For me, it's it's quality of life in longevity. I wanna live as best I can for as long as I can.

1:18:49
And what has been happening progressively over the course of the past seventy years is that a lot of men have started experiencing andropause earlier and earlier in their life. Andropause, just like menopause, is a suppression of sexual hormone production, specifically testosterone. Why is it happening? I don't know. Maybe it's the screens. Maybe it's the plastic. Maybe it's TikTok. I don't fucking know. But now you're seeing a lot of guys in their mid thirties, testing with two fifty testosterone levels.

1:19:20
I think when I started experiencing this and I'm completely open about it and a lot of guys aren't, Like, you know, I think a lot of guys are willing to deal with the fact that, like, I'm getting a little bit older. Like, I'm not recovering the way that I used to or blah blah blah. That didn't bother me as much. When men started experiencing erectile dysfunction, that's typically the tipping point where they are like, fuck this. No way, like, give me the juice, you know, whatever. And so I think a lot of guys are afraid to talk about that stuff. I think a lot of guys feel shame about it and, you know, it's funny because usually from the female perspective, like, girls don't care. They're just like, okay. But for guys, it's a big deal. It's like, what makes you feel like a man? And and so that typically is the point where I see most guys being like, you know what? I don't care about the cross fit open. Give me the testosterone. That, you know, just overwhelming. If you're in that category, great. If you're not so it's it's fine. If you just wanna be optimal, that's fine. So and their pauses occurring earlier and earlier in life now for whatever reason.

1:20:19
Probably environmental factors. I see it especially in CrossFit and I think it's because of the excessive application of intensity and what we talk about the ability for not just tissues to heal and remodel, but for hormones to recover because when you're constantly over stressing the body, you get systemic hormone suppression, not just testosterone, but also thyroid. And we see a lot of, like, very sluggish chiroids, a lot of just everything, growth hormone, everything is really low. You're always in a catabolic state. Like, you just kind of not new chemistry is fucked up. So It's not just one thing you wanna look at. It's really it's really everything, but definitely like testosterone for a man is a it plays a huge part in specific types of functions, sexual performance and function, the ability to respond to training, increased muscle mass, decreased body fat, and then other subjective measures like drive, virility, vitality, hunger. Right?

1:21:14
When I started doing testosterone the first year I did it, Kandi saw a huge change in me, not just like, you know, the physical changes were kind of slow. But immediately, she's like, you were kind of like a lump on a log before like, you just wanna kinda sleep all day and watch TV. And now, like, you're up and, like, you're getting after it. And, yeah, I wrote three books that year. And I was like, just I felt so driven. You know, I was like, you know, it's so I I think for guys, the first thing is to find a good doctor.

1:21:44
You know, there are lots of good doctors out there, but I would find someone who specializes in specifically male homework and optimization. Don't go to the run of the mill kind of conveyor belt clinic because everyone you get like, I get mail order testosterone. Don't enter into something like this lightly. It's the type of thing you got about conversation with your wife about it. You want to understand the risks and rewards, and especially how to manage it and a good doctor that can kind of optimize a protocol that's gonna work for you because the same way your training and nutrition evolves. So will your prescription evolve? And this stuff is not to be taken lightly, but luckily we're at the point now where longevity, regenerative medicine practices have been going for long enough that there's some really great management systems out there to help you do this for a long time as safe as possible and increase your, you know, your your quality of life and duration. And and And I think, like, you know, people are always, you know, the traditional hang ups are, like, one, like, am I gonna lose my hair?

1:22:42
What if I need to get off of it? Is it gonna give me cardiac issues down the line? I don't wanna die early. You know, I think people don't understand that low testosterone is equally and potentially more dangerous than slightly high testosterone. Right? And so, like, with low testosterone, you know, you all hear guys say, well, I'm afraid to go on it because if I wanna get off it, my own testosterone production is gonna be shut down. And I go, oh, so it'll end up kinda like where it's at right now. So you're living your worst case scenario currently. You know? They're like, I'm like, I have a direct health dysfunction, and I I love really suppressed to stop. You're gonna go, you're that's you now. So, you know, like, you are the worst case scenario. So there's that one.

1:23:27
You know, in terms of things like hair loss, that's just gonna not come down to whether you're genetically predisposed to hair loss or not. It can accelerate that process. If you are, and there's some things you can maybe try to do about it, but like you're gonna lose your hair, you're gonna lose your hair. In terms of cardiac issues, there's always a process of screaming people. Right? So if you have like any kind of like hereditary or family risk factors, you just know your predispose, you certainly want to keep an eye a close eye on yourself if you are increasing the antigens in your body because it can cause effects like increased red blood cell production, which can sometimes increase the thickness or viscosity of your blood. So, you know, you you need to manage it a little, you know, pretty pretty carefully if if you are in that category and most people are not.

1:24:12
In terms of, you know, the prostate thing, like, you can increase the size of your prostate. Again, that honestly comes down to genetics whether you're predisposed to process prostate cancer and a large prostate or not put you in a higher risk category. But other than that, I think it's almost all You know? Right. And and I think that for most people, it's a life changing game changing thing that you know, it makes them a better man for themselves and for the people around them. And so when you look at it from that perspective of, you know, there are drugs that are regenerative and there are drugs that are degenerative depending on what you're taking and how much you're taking.

1:24:50
If you're taking excessive amounts of testosterone in what you might call, like, to to get yourself to superhuman levels, that has a shelf like, that has a lot of risk factors associated with it. It's not something that's really maintainable. But if you're doing this to optimize yourself to get to the top end of normal, to feel good. There's there are no, you know, documented risk factors that that has any additional risk at all in terms of cardiovascular risk or things like that. So Yeah. And, you know, like, for for finding a doctor, you gotta do research.

1:25:28
I've worked with a dozen different doctors on this. I know clinics all around the country. People I told people when I'll put up a post about testosterone replacement therapy, I've been like shadow band by Instagram a dozen times. I always get people be like, why don't you tell us what you're taking? And I'm like, I can't give you dosages because every time I say anything specific, my Instagram gets shut down. And that's how I operate a lot of my business is doing Instagram stuff in general. And I'm having to talk about, like, specifically, like, what I do on on podcast and things But I always tell people in these posts, so, like, you know what, if you're interested in finding a good doctor, just DM me, and I'll hook you up wherever you are.

1:26:07
Go on your Instagram. I look you know, where where do you live? You know, there's certain clinics that pair up better with some people versus others. If you're a young kid who's trying to optimize, performance that might lead towards one type of clinic or if you're somebody who's trying to deal with like health issues or autoimmune things, or fertility. You wanna do testosterone, but you're still trying to have a baby. That might be another clinic. So, like, you know, I'll I'll filter people towards some of these practitioners and also, like, disposable income, right, how much money you have to allocate towards this stuff, there's always there's always an option.

1:26:39
But like -- Yeah. -- we have the technology to fix you. Right? We have the ability to do it safely. That can show a vast improvement in your longevity and quality of life. So why wouldn't you wanna fix yourself? Why? You know?

1:26:53
I I think their narrative is changing a little bit. I think I think with folks, I think the more open people are about it. I think the narrative does change, right, whereas it was very mysterious before and you only can only assume or thing like that. So I think is changing. People are scared and ashamed to talk about it or to pursue it, you know, like, never name names, but, like, there have been a dozen cross fit HQ staff members that have contacted me that I put on to to clinics and this doctor or that doctor and who are so afraid that anybody would find out that they're doing testosterone. I'm like, that's so silly. Who is learning over you in that way to make you ashamed about wanting to be the best version yourself? And and if that's the case, is that the type of environment you wanna be in, you know, but Right. Yeah. Yeah.

1:27:41
And for like, I I started getting my blood work done like, twenty twenty, just doing, like, sort of a naturopathic sort of blood panel of all sorts of things. How often do you and and that we actually did a podcast. We actually had someone come on and talk about blood panels and and what you're looking for, what you should do, and just from optimizing just this to see what's going on inside. Right? Like, it's hard to you know, we're just guessing. We just assume this is but it's nice seeing what's going on and understanding more about that. How often are you sort of doing sort of blood panels are getting your blood worked up.

1:28:14
So do you think about that, like, sickness, wellness, fitness, continue? I bet you most of people listen to this podcast in terms of physical capacity are probably outliers. They're probably stronger and quicker and leaner than most people. If they're optimal. Okay? Every other blood marker should also be optimal. It shouldn't be selective. It shouldn't be like, I'm but my blood pressure is high. Like, you don't want to address those weaknesses. Everything should be optimal. Testosterone, estradiol, growth hormone, thyroid function, CBCs, cardiometabolic panels, everything should be in the sweet spot.

1:28:50
If it's not, I you know, because like traditionally, like medicine if we call it a, you know, is it healthcare, it's sick care. Right? Let's treat -- Mhmm. -- if you're out of range, you're some medicine to fix the symptom, I think now they did shift towards functional medicine says, like, no, what let's treat the root causes as these issues are subclinical, meaning you start to get to the lower end end of normal or the high end of normal or whatever it is, Let's try to get it back into the optimal range before it becomes a problem. If you know you're genetically predisposed to x, we can get ahead of it, ahead of time. Your health is your wealth invested in early.

1:29:21
So like Camille and I, two thousand fifteen, right after she won the games, I was like, there's this doctor out in Arizona, and he's this naturopathic guy, and he's he's apparently doing some amazing things with athletes. Let's go out there. So originally, I wanted her to go out there, but I went with her and and they're like, hey, Dave, let's do you. And so we both did it. We got a gazillion blood panel this is now very, very expensive. And then they started giving us an insane amount of supplements and pills. I think that year, we spent over fifty thousand dollars on supplements and blood work and pills, and my testosterone went from three hundred to three fifty, which on a spectrum of two fifty to a thousand is kind of the norm. It's like very marginal. I'm like, I'm disappointed. But I said, I was bloody. And at that point, I'm like, you know what? Why don't you just give me that forty five dollar vial and testosterone instead? You know, because I think that this is just a, you know, whatever ways. But it did it it was good in terms of just, like, education of of health markers and stuff like that.

1:30:23
And there are things sometimes you can do naturally. There are things you can do from a lifestyle nutritional perspective or a training perspective, and there's some things that require pharmaceuticals. So I like finding doctors that don't just use one, but use all those tools to be able to get you where you need to be. When I started this, I was like determined to be like, I want to be able to raise my testosterone naturally, which is like the tooth fairy. Okay? Doesn't fucking exist. Like, there's some things you can do for marginal improvement or if you really fucked up in not sweeping, if you're just a mess, you could see some decent improvement. If you're like a guy like me or you, he's like, you eat well. You train well. You try to sleep. You're doing the bio hacks.

1:31:00
Like, and you think that adding this one herb or supplement is gonna be like game changer for you, It's not the case. That's not how it works. The only thing to create that kind of remarkable change is to supplement. And there are things that can help, but peptides can help There's a peptide called HCG, which helps with testicular function, and I actually take it on the regular for fertility, but also to reduce the chance of testicular atrophy because as you have, you know, you supplement with testosterone, your body knows that it doesn't need to produce as much so it can slowly start to atrophy your testicles something like HTG can help counteract that stuff. If you're someone out there who's young's, like, I think I might wanna have kids down the line, that's one way to avoid fertility issues that could potentially arise from supplementing with testosterone. Although I know dozens of body builders that have gotten their lives pregnant and have never done any of that, while they're guzzling excessive amounts of this stuff. So, you know, there there's a there's an application for all this.

1:31:56
But I think if you know what your squat snatches, if you know what your deadlift is and your fran time, and you know how many calories you're getting every day and what the macronutrient splits are, Why shouldn't you also know your blood work? Why shouldn't you also know where your creatinine levels are? Where your thyroid levels are? You testosterone, you should know all that. Because if you're not looking, you're flying blind and and, you know, optimization starts with precision and accuracy. It starts with, you know, prescribed, assess, adjust. That's the process of optimization. I prescribed you something. Here's my best guess as to where you might start. I assess it after a period of time to figure out how did we do, and then I ingest it accordingly. And that process repeats again and again and again with your blood work. Yeah. Right. No. A hundred percent and It was it was a huge eye opener when I started doing a book panel.

1:32:50
And just to know more and more, right, you wanna exactly. You wanna optimize everything. So I love that. And I and I think it's it's one of those things, like, it seems so, like, Like, why didn't I do this earlier? Like, it was one of those things where it's just, like, like, maybe it was just, like, I didn't think about it, but, like, if you train and if you if you care about your nutrition intake, but, like, it's, like even, like, when I'm thinking about, like, just getting a an MRI or a scan, and it's, like, I gotta nagging injury or whatever. And it's like, you're not gonna know like, you can go to a PT Sports, and I went to a athletic doctor, and he told me he's like, well, we're not gonna really know unless see what's going on inside. It's like, you're right. I mean, it's the same thing with Glove and, like, we just guess on the on the outside. Right? And it's like, getting access to those things and doing those things is something that I've really changed my mindset on, like, just, like, like, a lot of clues. I went to a lot of clues, and I got MRI because I've just been and Kim, that we wait. Almost a year to memorize. But Yeah. So he's a pain health care. You you know, there's a spectrum for this two child.

1:33:54
Because I think, like, for everybody, no matter what we're talking about, like, the first instinct is to is to kind of think like, oh, okay. Well, what's the easiest thing I can do? Like, my shoulder shirt. Let me try rehabbing it first. See if that works. Maybe that works fine. No problem. Like, you know, inexpensive. Your testosterone is low. Let me let me try cleaning my diet first. Let me try -- Right. -- better see see what that does. And then you're like, okay. Maybe it worked. Maybe it didn't. What's the next thing? Or maybe we tried this type of thing or that type of thing. And it kinda scales up.

1:34:21
But you don't need to start with the surgery. And you don't need to start with the testosterone either. You know? Like, you could just, like, just start start looking first, right, and and trying things, and you know, for for all these things, like, I always tell guys who are who are getting on that train, the the t train. Once you start, you're not you're not gonna wanna stop. You're not gonna wanna stop. It's it's gonna be the kind of thing where it's like you never felt better, you never better. You you know, like, you you're not gonna wanna get off it. So so enter into that relationship with a a level of care and caution so that you can do it for as long as you need to. And you don't have to stop because you are excessive or irresponsible with it. You know, because like that's just that's just silly. And I think for a lot of folks, this can become a slippery slope just like CrossFit where things start getting excessive or, like, more is better, more is not better, better is better.

1:35:20
And I think in terms of long term protocols for training nutrition pharmaceuticals, you know, supplements. Think about what's the least amount with the most effect? Because that'll be the most sustainable. You know, like, maybe it doesn't need to be four hundred milligrams of testosterone. Maybe it can be one hundred and fifty and you'll find it. You know? Like, or or or in terms of training. Like, maybe it doesn't need to train six days a week. Maybe you could train four days a week hard and get just as much benefit without, you know, the additional volume stress. So the least amount with the most effect seems to be the sweet spot for most most long term things. K. Yeah. Absolutely. I I do I have one more question. We'll wrap up.

1:36:04
Didn't get a chance to talk specifically nutrition, but let's say that for another time. Love to have you back on. But I wanted to ask you, you have a young family, you have a coaching business, a program, a thriving community, you have a large online presence, and training is a is a significant priority for you. How do you fit it in? Right? For the for the the moms, the dads, the the career drivers listening to the community or listening to this podcast. You know, we're all trying to fit in there. Right? We're all trying to have this balanced lifestyle. We were all trying to go after three or four different things and do everything great. How do how do you how do you fit it all in? How do you stay sort of balance, and how do you sort of, you know how are you successful in that way? How do you balance it all? I'm so clear.

1:36:51
I think I think a lot of folks tend to, like, be resistant to change. You know, like, I think I think that, like, as your circumstances and life logistics kind of evolve, you know, the way you approach this stuff has to evolve to, like, I can't train the way that I did when I was in my twenties, like, every day isn't about me. Right? Like, most in fact, like, The vast majority early is on. Maybe your birthday. Sure. It's either work or family you know, and and and that's it. If I have any time for myself, it's it's kind of a rarity.

1:37:30
So the idea of, like, hey. I'm gonna get up to nine. I'm gonna roll to the gym and get myself some nice breakfast and go train, hang out, you know, maybe come back home, do some therapy, go back in afternoon, train again, like, that's what you have for us on the weekend. Like, I lived that way for years. Right? That would not work for, like, her lifestyle now. Right? I'm lucky I could get, you know, in the day, I'm lucky if I could carve out ninety minutes to get some training in during the day.

1:37:58
So don't compare yourself to what you used to do or what other people are doing, what gains athletes are doing, and things like, well, I need to do that if I wanna be at that level or look like that. Just meet yourself where you're at, focus on what you can do again, and and see if, like, without putting the expectation or assigning a good or a bad to it. Just look at, like, okay. Well, you know, what is feasible? Right? For me, it's, you know, if I'm when I'm up early, like, it starts with thirty minutes on the bike. Right? That's that's easy. You know, my my my daughter's still asleep. If she is awake, I pop her in front of the couch to watch cartoons, is on biking, the fast the cardio is done. Boom. Right?

1:38:38
The same thing with nutrition. Like, you know, obviously, I'm not gonna go out to eat every every meal. I'm gonna prep a lot of my own stuff. You know, a lot of my my meals are sometimes oatmeal protein powder because sometimes logistics, that kind of stuff. So you gotta figure out a way to wake at work. And then prioritization and communicating with your spouse, you know, like, of all the things, like, I don't care about cars. I don't care about going out to bars or drinking. Like, I don't need that kind of a here's what I need. I need to be able to train hard ones today, and I need about ninety minutes to do it. And so we figure out where that fits. She's the same exact way. We understand that. So I'm willing to take, you know, to take a hit, to allow her to train. She's willing to, you know, do whatever, to to give me that time.

1:39:23
But, you know, just like in the airplane, when the airplane's going down, the mass drop, you gotta put yours on before you can help other people. Like, you gotta be good for your before you could be good for everyone else. So I think a lot of people will say things like, well, I care too much about my family and I need to I need to be there for them. But in the meantime, when you are there for them, you're like a miserable son of a bitch because you're not right with yourself. So you're actually not good for them. The way to be good for them is by carving out that time, whether it be self care or time in the gym or whatever, so that you can be the best version of yourself and the people around you. But if you're not taking care of yourself, that's not gonna happen. You're gonna become a resentful, crumudge, grumpy old man. So they'll do that. Good point. Yeah. I mean, it it's great. So, I mean, this has been awesome. It's been Thank you so much for your time. This has been insightful.

1:40:17
I think the the folks listening to this are gonna get a great deal of information and knowledge. If anyone's interested, where's the best place to find out more about you, your programming, the the art of hypertrophy, what's the best place to kind of get get all the Well, it probably categorized it. So, like, if if you guys have, like, anything, like, like, medical, internal chemistry related send me a DM at the freaking lipson, and I can give you a decent referral to clinics that are both in and out of country. You guys ever wanna do, like, a consultation call and talk about anything, training, nutrition, mindset, pharma, whatever. There are features on thunderbird dot com where you can book a call with me for a consult if you wanna get more information on that. But thunderbird dot com is the main site where we offer all of our services. So it's THUNDR b r o.

1:41:12
So it's like, fun doctor Bro. Bro science meets real science, and that's where you got, like, all of our books, you know, like, our our training library with the daily lifestyle. I didn't show you this, Chad. This daily lifestyle journalism. Oh, I saw it. Training nutrition with all the hydration recovery, digestive protocols. So, like, all of our books are on there, all of our challenges. We got some kick ass challenges with our thirty day shred challenge where we combine training nutrition and one on one coaching for, like, big, you know, very very remarkable body transformations in terms of reducing body fat bringing out muscularity in just thirty days. That's a really popular challenge. Our ninety day get huge book, which we just launched, is also a challenge option as well. Where you can combine that with nutrition coaching. You get a journal and a BK T shirt with it where you can kinda like do it with the community.

1:42:00
And I think Like I said, like, the training is great, but what you're doing outside the training audit has a lot more impact. So I think while there is a whole lifestyle protocol in that book, being able to coach through it and get, you know, the specifics and stuff can be really helpful. And then there's just, like, all things to understand, man. We we try to find all these these different avenues to help people, you know, thrive, not just survive, or be able to blend performance and aesthetics together in a number of ways from our training gear to our books to our, you know, programs and services. And then we even have some, like, top tier stuff where, you know, have, like, a a very short list of private clients where I'll, like, way older stuff for them.

1:42:38
But go to thunderbird dot com. And you could check us out at theunderbrough, and I'm at dave freaking lipson. If you have any questions, You know, unlike most people, Ayaz or every single DM, even in that place. Somebody who's like, I hate you. I think you're stupid. And I'm like, Okay. You guys look like Thanks, bro. Yes. I can attest to that. You're very accessible. And, yes, I would definitely encourage everyone to follow. You always have some good information.

1:43:04
About attrition, some cool finisher type workouts. So anybody, if they're even interested in doing some of this, even I feel like about the the the finisher bible. I think that's a great introduction for anyone that's kind of interested in sort of your programming to kind of dabble it in we gotta get That's what you're saying. It's like You know, that get huge program that's just, like, three days a week -- Yeah. -- where that finisher's book is just a great way to get exposed -- Yeah. -- to the hypertrophy methodology without having to go full tilt into it -- Yeah. -- you know, where you could just, like, still do your cross your work out. And you just, like, carve out ten minutes pick a body part, find a cool finisher, and and try it out. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

1:43:46
Well, David, it's been amazing. Thank you so much again. This has been great. And thanks everyone for listening. Thanks for listening over the years. This has been awesome and I'm super excited to get this back up and running. So I'm sixty four right here. I'm at sixty four. Awesome. Alright, several. Talk to you in a few minutes too. You betcha. Alright, brother. Thanks for having me on. It's been an honor. And then please, if you're out there and you're listening, you know, let me know how I can help because I'm so grateful for the journey I've had. A lot of people have been that person to me. You know, people like Stan Efferting or or Dr. Bad shown fell to just like, you know, let me know, I was in your shoes. You know, we all kinda pass it or or paid forward. So, you know, if you're out there and you wanna win, I wanna show you how to do it.

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